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Gerald Honigman is a Florida educator who has done extensive doctoral work in Middle East studies, has lectured on numerous university and other platforms. He has debated many of the best Arab and pro-Arab academics in public debates and on television. Mr. Honigman is widely published in academic journals, magazines, newspapers and other publications.


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Posted by david barrett

  
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PostThu Mar 15, 2007 7:01 am        


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Quote:
He came to set the people back on track of Torah... to lighten the yoke the rabbi's put on the people with all the added laws and traditions that they themselves couldn't even carry.


He was a rebel ; we have them in all generations
Today we may refer to them as reform Jews or Liberal
He spurned Rabbinic dictate- and ridiclud some of their ststements publicly
This was not the way handle the situation



-
Quote:
He preached against racism, unlike the Koran and Talmud. There is no such thing as Jew or gentile with Him.

Twaddle
He was a Jew . He never knew or understood your concept of xian.
This came later
Xianity is best defined as Paulism


Quote:
- He was/is into healing the sick.
-

So am I and so are you. Think about it

Quote:
He died for our sins.

And so did Many Jews, who were minding their own business, die at the hands of xians. They could sin with impunity and were immediately forgiven!!??

You die when God decides you have served your purpose here on Earth
Your reward depends on your 'behaviour ' here
You do NOT approach 'Heaven' sinless no matter how many J's have died


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Posted by david barrett

  
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PostThu Mar 15, 2007 7:08 am        


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To StB & diffangle

Pastor John Hagee , founder of Xians Utd for Israel said last week re his belief in his version of a messiah
" ......When we're standing in Jerusalem, and the Messiah is coming down the street, one of us is going to have to a major theological adjustment to make.
But until that time, lets walk together in support of Israel......."

I agree 100% with this and it would be better not to have any further discusion as to whom the final messiah belongs to because we shall never agree .
True!?


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Posted by diffangle

  
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PostThu Mar 15, 2007 9:02 am        


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Maybe BUT he used violence when it suited himNo question that if tried to do what he is reported as having done he would be arrested today


David, you confuse zeal for the Father's house for violence. Other than turning over a couple of thieves tables, He didn't use violence. Also, not only would He be arrested today but He was back then and then killed.

Quote:
Also the nature of violence in Torah differs to that of Koran


You mistakenly think I was refering to Torah, I wasn't. I refered to the Talmud, as you say... they're different.

Quote:
As to xianity they used their writings as a means of sanctifying violence


What writings specifically did they use? The Renewed Covenant doesn't condone killing/violence. Are you aware of when the Mashiach rebuked His disciple for cutting off the soldiers ear when they came to take Him into custody?

Quote:
at no time do we read of any so called xian leader stand up and
say " this is NOT the xian way!"


http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/Newsletter.htm

"Hitler wanted not only to conquer all of Europe, but he also wanted to create a new religion and to replace Jesus Christ as a person to be worshipped. Hitler expected his followers to worship the Nazi ideology. Since Catholic priests and Christian pastors were often influential leaders in their community, they were targeted by the Nazis. Thousands of priests and pastors were forced into concentration camps. A special barracks was set up at Dachau, the camp near Munich, Germany, for clergymen. A few survived; some were executed, but most were allowed to die slowly of starvation or disease. "

Quote:
He was a rebel ; we have them in all generations
Today we may refer to them as reform Jews or Liberal
He spurned Rabbinic dictate- and ridiclud some of their ststements publicly
This was not the way handle the situation


So then no one is supposed to disagree with the rabbi's laws and tradition's? Doesn't this contradict what you and Gerald said about Christianity's claims of perfection but Judaism bends over backwards to show its faults as to not deify men? Haven't you been saying that you can't question anything your rabbi's have taught you? Isn't that deifying them?

Quote:
Twaddle
He was a Jew . He never knew or understood your concept of xian.
This came later
Xianity is best defined as Paulism


Agreed that He was a Jew but what do you mean by my "concept of xian"?
Also, by your "twaddle" comment... are you saying b/c He's was a Jew therefore He's racist?

Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. Yahushua answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of YHWH, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of Him, and He would have given thee living water. John 4:9&10

Doesn't this show a lack of racism that existed then?

Quote:
So am I and so are you. Think about it


How many lepers, deaf, or blind people have you healed lately?

Quote:
And so did Many Jews, who were minding their own business, die at the hands of xians. They could sin with impunity and were immediately forgiven!!??


This may come as a surprise, but there are actually people that give themselves labels that they aren't. It's called fronting. He said that "you will know them by their fruit". Any so-called Christian who has partaken in persecuting others proves their fruit is rotten, therefore they were not really follower's of Yahushua.

Quote:
You do NOT approach 'Heaven' sinless


You're correct, no one is sinless... including rabbi's. Thanks to Abba's Ultimate Sacrifice, we can now at least enter Heaven... HalleluYah!

Quote:
Pastor John Hagee , founder of Xians Utd for Israel said last week re his belief in his version of a messiah
" ......When we're standing in Jerusalem, and the Messiah is coming down the street, one of us is going to have to a major theological adjustment to make.


It's already happening, Christian's are starting to wake-up to the Torah and realise that Mashiach didn't do away with it... as He states in Matthew 5:17&18.

Quote:
But until that time, lets walk together in support of Israel


Agreed. Just know that just b/c I believe that rabbi's can be fallible men doesn't mean I don't fully support Yisrael.

Quote:
I agree 100% with this and it would be better not to have any further discusion as to whom the final messiah belongs to because we shall never agree .
True!?


We will agree one day... you'll see Wink


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Posted by david barrett

  
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PostThu Mar 15, 2007 1:09 pm        


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Quote:
I refered to the Talmud


where?


Re xian violence I was referring more to that done from time of crusades , thro middle ages and by other xians non German
also that donr in the south americas
Re Hitler I am aware of what you quoted - but I think that the Holocxaust was and will remain a very special form of genocide
Most murderous events in recent times since & today are purely tribal and not religious based
regards


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Posted by david barrett

  
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PostThu Mar 15, 2007 1:32 pm        


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Jesus did not isolate the germ of leprosy, or establish any practicable method of preventing disease. He has been of less value to the world as a healer than Pasteur, Lister, Koch, or Walter Reed.

Some Christians will say that Jesus did not tell us how to avoid illness because man needs to be chastened by pain. If that is correct, if pain and disease are sent by God and are consciously permitted by Jesus, sick people should be allowed to suffer instead of trying to heal them.


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Posted by david barrett

  
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PostThu Mar 15, 2007 1:37 pm        


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NON LENIENT
The conventional Jesus is emblematic of supreme kindness and forgiveness, but in reality he was far from lenient in many instances, nor did he advocate forgiveness for certain offenses.
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee ... tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican." ['Matt. xviii, 15-17.]

In the parable of Dives and Lazarus, Abraham was represented as Justified in not forgiving the rich man tortured in hell, or even in saving the rich man's brothers as requested by the victim of Jesus' policy of punishment.

Again Jesus said: "Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father." [Matt. x, 33.] "Whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness." [Mark iii, 29.]

All the wicked were condemned by Jesus to eternal punishment with no chance of forgiveness.

RUDENESS
Vituperation
Jesus was often vehement in his language to an extent hardly compatible with gentleness of character.
"O generation of vipers! how can ye, being evil, speak good things?" [Matt. xii, 34.]

"Woe unto you, hypocrites, for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him two-fold more the child of hell than yourselves." [Matt. xxiii, 15.]

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" [Matt. xxiii, 33.]

"If I should say I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you." [John viii, 55.]

"All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers." [John x, 8.]

"Ye fools and blind." [Matt. xxiii, 17.]

This language may have been necessary, in Jesus' opinion, to convince his hearers of their sins, but such vituperation does not become a modern ethical teacher.

VIOLENCE
Destruction of Property
Two acts of Jesus, consistent with his disregard of worldly goods, were destructive in character.
"And there was a good way off from them a herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters." [Matt. viii, 28-34.]

Jesus did what the devils requested, cruelly killing two thousand inoffensive valuable animals that belonged to other people.

"Jesus went up to Jerusalem, and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables."

Jesus has been defended for other acts on the ground that he was living in less civilized times than our own, but here he is seen offending both ancient and modern sensibilities. The destruction of the swine and the routing of the merchants were sensational and erratic exhibitions. If reformers today should destroy herds of animals, except to protect public health by due process of law, or overthrow banks, they would be liable to arrest in any city of Christendom. Therefore the consensus of opinion denies exoneration to Jesus for his spasmodic resort to direct action.


Lack of Courtesy
Jesus did not always exhibit the courtesy one would expect of a gentleman, or even of a nature's nobleman.
The first instance of lack of consideration was when he slipped away from his parents, causing them unnecessary anxiety: "Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. [Luke ii, 48.] He had remained behind to study Hebrew theology and did not tell his parents, presumably because he thought they would not have permitted the venture.

Another instance was found in his daily life:

"A certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat. And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner. And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness. Ye fools ..." [Luke xi, 37-40.]

Jesus had not only failed to wash as was expected of a guest, but defended his uncleanliness and abused his host.

At another time Jesus was discourteous to his mother:

"And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?" [John ii, 4.]

Jesus was apparently annoyed at his mother's interference, though he followed her suggestion. He did not set a good example for children in addressing their mothers.

When the Syrophenician woman asked him to help her daughter, "Jesus saith unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter." [Mark vii, 25-29.]

Jesus practically admitted that he had made a mistake in speaking unkindly to a Gentile. Her clever answer induced him to change his decision. A physician who called a stranger's child a dog would now be considered brutal even in a free hospital.

"And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." [Matt. viii, 21-22.]

Jesus could have allowed the man to attend his father's funeral and follow him later. Would not that have set a better precedent?

When Peter intervened to protect Jesus, the latter "turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me." [Matt. xvi, 23,]

Even though Jesus was determined to go on with the sacrifice, he could have been more appreciative of his best friend's suggestion.



YES J WAS A GREAT GUY WITH A RELIGIOUS PROBLEM & BEHAVED LIKE A NORMAL PERSON WHEN OCCASIONALLY THWARTED !


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Posted by david barrett

  
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PostThu Mar 15, 2007 1:40 pm        


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BTW to call J Abba is deceitful and very unkind
God Himself is THE Father of mankind
And if by Abba you are connecting with Pappa then the Pope's wife will be upset Laughing


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Posted by diffangle

  
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PostThu Mar 15, 2007 5:03 pm        


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Glad to see you willing to continue the thread/convo. I will address your previous post later when I have more time than I do right now but quickly I wanted to answer your last post.

I was refering to Abba YHWH, He came in the flesh as the Son and sacrificed His flesh for us. Just as father/abba Avraham was willing to do with his beloved son Isaac.

As far as the Pope goes, I'm not a fan so I wasn't refering to him. Wink


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Posted by david barrett

  
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PostFri Mar 16, 2007 9:47 am        


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Quote:
I was refering to Abba YHWH, He came in the flesh as the Son


This cannot be
The minute you place God into a specific entity you destroy the concept that God is everywhere , allseeing etc

Either He came or part of Him came but you leave the world devoid of His presence somewhere!!


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Posted by Paul Cohen

  
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PostFri Mar 16, 2007 10:34 am        


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Greetings and shalom to all. I have been following your posts and there is so much more I would like to say, but appropriate to the moment, is this:

David, how can you say that God cannot appear in more than one place, or suppose that there is only a finite amount of Him to go around? It is but a small thing for Him to fill the universe, much less to choose to appear as a man.

You argued, unsuccessfully, that God did not appear to Abraham as a man. However, that is not the only recorded instance of His appearing in the Old Testament.

He also appeared in the form of a man to Jacob (Gen. 32:24-30), Joshua (5:13-6:5), and Manoah and his wife (Judges 13:22).

And Who else do you think the Messiah can be, other than YHWH, seeing He is sinless, and no man is without sin?

"God looks down from heaven on the children of men, to see if there are any who understood, who seek after God. Every one of them has gone back. They have become filthy together. There is no one who does good, no, not one" (Psalms 53:2-3 HNV).

"He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore His own arm brought salvation to Him; and His righteousness, it upheld Him" (Isaiah 59:16 HNV).


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Posted by Paul Cohen

  
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PostSat Mar 17, 2007 9:57 am        


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Sabbath Peace,

Another thing I would like to respond to is your assertion, David, that the Jews "following the learned Rabbis 'interpretations', over the last 3000 years...[have] survived calamities which wiped out others - and any onlooker will say its a miracle It is this observance which has maintained us."

That is not the take that God, Your Maker, has on things:

“As a sweet savor will I accept you, when I bring you out from the peoples, and gather you out of the countries in which you have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you in the sight of the nations. You shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into Eretz-Yisra'el, into the country which I swore to give to your fathers. There shall you remember your ways, and all your doings, in which you have polluted yourselves; and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that you have committed. You shall know that I am the LORD, when I have dealt with you for My Name's sake, not according to your evil ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, you house of Yisra'el, says the Lord GOD” (Ezekiel 20:41-44 HNV).

According to God, it is His mercy and righteousness, and not yours, by which you have been kept all these years. In fact, He has kept you despite your contempt and unrighteousness:

"The land will be empty of them and enjoy its Sabbaths while they're gone. They'll pay for their sins because they refused My laws and treated My decrees with contempt. But in spite of their behavior, while they are among their enemies I won't reject or abhor or destroy them completely. I won't break My covenant with them: I am GOD, their God. For their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I, with all the nations watching, brought out of Egypt in order to be their God. I am GOD" (Leviticus 26:43-45 MSG).


Paul Cohen
www.thepathoftruth.com


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Posted by diffangle

  
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PostSat Mar 17, 2007 2:41 pm        


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Shabbat Shalom,

Quote:
Quote:
I refered to the Talmud


where?


In my post where I wrote:
Quote:
- He didn't condone violence, unlike the Koran and Talmud.


Quote:
Re xian violence I was referring more to that done from time of crusades , thro middle ages and by other xians non German
also that donr in the south americas


Again, any so-called "Christian" who acted out violently like the crusader's were not really Christian, plus their were plenty of true Christians who perished in those times also. You say that no Christian leaders stood up for the Jews during those times... what about St. Bernard during the Crusades? The true Christians have suffered from the beginning's of the faith at the hands of Jews and gentiles, whereas the persecution of the Jews by these so-called Christians didn't occur until several hundred years after Yahushua's death and resurrection when Constantine married the faith with pagan Rome.

Quote:
Most murderous events in recent times since & today are purely tribal and not religious based


How so?

Quote:
Jesus did not isolate the germ of leprosy, or establish any practicable method of preventing disease. He has been of less value to the world as a healer than Pasteur, Lister, Koch, or Walter Reed


Modern medicine is one of the largest killer's and deblitator's of most of the world's population.
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/ama.htm

Quote:
Some Christians will say that Jesus did not tell us how to avoid illness because man needs to be chastened by pain.


He told us in the beginning how to maintain optimum health in Gen. 1:29 and then again in the last chapter of the Renewed Covenant in Rev. 22:2 where we're told, "and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations".


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Posted by diffangle

  
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PostSat Mar 17, 2007 3:51 pm        


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Quote:
NON LENIENT
The conventional Jesus is emblematic of supreme kindness and forgiveness, but in reality he was far from lenient in many instances, nor did he advocate forgiveness for certain offenses.
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee ... tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican." ['Matt. xviii, 15-17.]


If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. Deut. 21:18-21

Quote:
RUDENESS
Vituperation
Jesus was often vehement in his language to an extent hardly compatible with gentleness of character.


For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the YHWH; and how much more after my death? Deut. 31:27

And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation [that] set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God. Psa. 78:8

Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked. Ex.23:7

How gentle is YHWH with wicked and rebellious people?

Quote:
VIOLENCE
Destruction of Property... cruelly killing two thousand inoffensive valuable animals that belonged to other people.


Who said that the swine was someone's property? How many pig farmer's were there in Israel in those days... or even today for that matter? If they exist, I imagine it to not be a very profitable business.

Quote:
Lack of Courtesy
Jesus did not always exhibit the courtesy one would expect of a gentleman, or even of a nature's nobleman.


You refered to Luke 2 when Yahushua got left behind as an act of discourtesy but we see that His parents along with the other's in the synagogue were amazed at His sayings and that "He went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart" verse 51.

Quote:
"A certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat. And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner. And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness. Ye fools ..." [Luke xi, 37-40.]


Yes... His point being that it was just another one of the many burdens that the leaders added to YHWH's Torah. Why was the pharisee so judgemental? Who are you hurting by not washing your hands before you eat? It wasn't like Yahushua was sticking His hands in the Pharisees plate of food.

Quote:
"And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?" [John ii, 4.]


The Greek for the "to do with" part of this verse is kai meaning and or but. So the verse could either say "what have I but you?" Or, "what have I and you?" And Miriam then commands the servants to do whatever He commands them so He tells them to bring Him the water pots holding 9 gallons of water a piece. Maybe what He meant by telling her, "what have I but you" was in reference to Him respectfully not wanting her carry these heavy jugs.

Quote:
"And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." [Matt. viii, 21-22.]


The greatest Commandment is to love YHWH above all, including more than a carcass.


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Posted by david barrett

  
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PostSat Mar 17, 2007 5:44 pm        


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Quote:
How so?


Darfur and Iraq for starters


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Posted by diffangle

  
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PostSun Mar 18, 2007 7:43 am        


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Both being carried out by those who claim to be of "the religion of peace". Sad


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