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    editor

  

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PostFri Jan 27, 2006 8:57 am     Choosing Murder Over Dialogue - A MidEastTruth Presentation    


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Choosing Murder Over Dialogue
A MidEastTruth.com presentation




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If you agree with the content of this presentation, and would like to help us distribute it, please send it to local and national journalists, politicians, and influential individuals, and of course, to your own list of friends and relatives.

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The MidEastTruth team






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    david barrett

  

MidEastTruth.com - the first 13 yearsMidEastTruth.com
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What is Palestine? Who are the Palestinians?
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PostSat Jan 28, 2006 2:27 pm        


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Excellent but will the leaders in the presentation stand by their initial utterances????


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    editor

  

MidEastTruth.com - the first 13 yearsMidEastTruth.com
The first 13 years!

 

What is Palestine? Who are the Palestinians?
What is Palestine?
Who are the Palestinians?


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PostSat Jan 28, 2006 3:14 pm        


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Last slide: Only time will tell if these firm reactions will hold.


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    editor

  

MidEastTruth.com - the first 13 yearsMidEastTruth.com
The first 13 years!

 

What is Palestine? Who are the Palestinians?
What is Palestine?
Who are the Palestinians?


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PostTue Jan 31, 2006 4:05 pm        


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The following is a correspondence between the MidEastTruth team (MT) and an individual from Europe (whose name and details are kept with MideastTruth. We will call him R). The dialogue (MidEastTruth in blue, the individual in black), was spurred by our recent PowerPoint presentation on Hamas and the Palestinian elections. For your information and comments:

R: In my jewish and israel friendly eyes your contribution does not deserve to be applauded; it's a sad result of narrow minded, short-sighted and historically blind school of thinking

What a pitty that there so many representatives of jewish organizations and israeli citizens who oversee like you that
- until yesterday Hamas hasn't ever been in a position to execute government responsibility
- the Polisario, the Sin-Feyn, afghan tribes, american civil rights groups, ..... and even Irgun Zwi Leumi first participated at elections and only later agreed to non-violent, un-armed continuation of their liberation fights
- the palestinian civil society is closer to western democratic standards than the vast majority of most other arab countries
- in the long run Israel will have only one, evt two reliable partners: the palestinians and evt the jewish diasporah: the day is not far that the US and Europe due to their dependency on oil shall drop Israel.

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MT: Dear R,

Thank you for your message.

We are a small group of volunteers (Jews, Christians and Muslim from different nationalities) who try to promote peace and dialogue while criticizing terror and hate. We have a dialogue with moderate Palestinians who oppose terrorism. We supported President Clinton's peace plan from Camp David 2000 and still believe it is the most just solution for the Middle East conflict. We regretted the fact that Arafat didn't even propose a counter-offer, but instead started an armed conflict - a conflict which cost many human lives, on both sides.

We will continue to support dialogue between the sides.

However, one can't ignore the vote of the Palestinian people. Most of them chose hate and murder over negotiation and dialogue.

Your comments are misguided. Let us suggest that you further educate yourself about certain historic events:

1. The Irgun never had any religious or fundamentalist attitudes. Furthermore, the Irgun did not participate in Israeli elections as an armed militia.

2. As opposed to Arafat and Abbas, Ben Gurion fought for the idea of "one rule one gun" (which is the ONLY way to prevent anarchy) and collected illegal weapons from the Jewish organizations. The Altalena incident (in which Ben Gurion ordered Palmach soldiers to open fire on the Altalena ship, which was carrying guns for the Etzel militia) is proof of his commitment to this ideal.

3. Although they promised to fight terrorism over 10 years ago in Oslo, the Palestinians have never proved that they are willing to fight terrorism, as required by the very first paragraph in the Quartet (US, EU, UN, Russia) sponsored Road Map. Moreover, both Arafat and Abbas, (former and current Presidents of the PA) have declared that they will not collect the illegal weapons which terror organizations use to murder Israeli civilians.

4. Furthermore, no Jewish organization has EVER sought the destruction of the UK or of any Arab territory, as opposed to Hamas, which has a clear agenda to destroy the only Jewish state in the world.

5. While the Jewish organizations sought independence, Hamas (and as it unfortunately turned out, most of the Palestinians, according to their vote) seeks the destruction of Israel.

6. Jewish organizations never mass murder innocent civilians, as opposed to Hamas and Islamic Jihad, who try to kill as many innocents as they can.

Perhaps you can tell us why a Palestinian party such as the Third Way received only 2% of the votes. This fact alone refutes the idea that the results of the Palestinian elections were due to Fatah's corruption. If the Palestinian people really sought peace, in addition to an end to corruption, surely many more of them (more than 2%!) would have supported the Third Way - a secular, uncorrupt, peaceful alternative.

Best wishes.


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R: First you must know that for more than 35 years I am involved in pro Israel and jewish matters, during the last six years I was chairman of the swiss Anti Defamation Committee of Bnai Brith [European capital city] and I am the founder and president of the Jewish Communications School of [European country] which educates and trains the next generation of jewish community leaders: all those who go on TV, give media interviews, write letters to the editors etc when it comes to issues like fighting racism, antisemitism or mid-east.
I found your answer rather arrogant and historically as misguided as the PPT about the palestinian election. I'll try to explain and elaborate as follows:

Quote:
However, one can't ignore the vote of the Palestinian people. Most of them chose hate and murder over negotiation and dialogue
very nicely worded slogan, but close to cheap propaganda, where is the election analysis supporting your pretention?

Quote:
Your comments are misguided. Let us suggest that you further educate yourself about certain historic events:
I did so for more than a generation and tried to listen to both sides

Quote:
1. The Irgun never had any religious or fundamentalist attitudes. Furthermore, the Irgun did not participate in Israeli elections as an armed militia.
not with the name Irgun, compare the names of Irgun commanders with early israeli party leaders

Quote:
2. As opposed to Arafat and Abbas, Ben Gurion fought for the idea of "one rule one gun" (which is the ONLY way to prevent anarchy) and collected illegal weapons from the Jewish organizations.
The Altalena incident (in which Ben Gurion ordered Palmach soldiers to open fire on the Altalena ship, which was carrying guns for the Etzel militia) is proof of his commitment to this ideal. did I make reference to Ben Gurion? the Altalena incident is one of the proofs that part of the israeli political system before and shortly after the state was founded in 1948 refused to refrain from using weapons: is the palestinian cause so different to 1948? Is the state of Israel and the settlers not a threat to the palestinian claim as were the British and the armed arab forces a threat for the jews in 48?

Quote:
3. Although they promised to fight terrorism over 10 years ago in Oslo, the Palestinians have never proved that they are willing to fight terrorism, as required by the very first paragraph in the Quartet (US, EU, UN, Russia) sponsored Road Map. Moreover, both Arafat and Abbas, (former and current Presidents of the PA) have declared that they will not collect the illegal weapons which terror organizations use to murder Israeli civilians.
wrong, Abbas was not very successful but contrary to Arafat he tried at least made some progress, arrested numbers of gunmen, cooperated with israeli secret service and ....

Quote:
4. Furthermore, no Jewish organization has EVER sought the destruction of the UK or of any Arab territory, as opposed to Hamas, which has a clear agenda to destroy the only Jewish state in the world.
wait if a Hamas government official will declare such horrible things once they carry the responsibility; compare Begin's, Shamir's or Sharon's statement before and after they assumed government responsibilities

Quote:
5. While the Jewish organizations sought independence, Hamas (and as it unfortunately turned out, most of the Palestinians, according to their vote) seeks the destruction of Israel.
you seem to listen only to right wing israel propaganda, the main issue of the palestinians is INDEPENDENCE in other words getting rid of the israeli occupiers; this does not mean destruction of the state of Israel, go and read palestinian oppinion polls: you will learn that only a small minority supports the idea of a palestinian state from jordan to the meditaranean; about the same number as you find in Israel supporting the "transfer idea" which was even an issue for two members of the Sharon government

Quote:
6. Jewish organizations never mass murder innocent civilians, as opposed to Hamas and Islamic Jihad, who try to kill as many innocents as they can.
I wouldn't ever dare to formulate such a comparison, don't you realize the huge difference in democratic experience and level of education

Quote:
Perhaps you can tell us why a Palestinian party such as the Third Way received only 2% of the votes.
you give the answer yourself; because they did not take part in the big corruption businesses which helped to finance the election campaign for Hamas and Fatah; when have talked last time with Palestinian media or business people, did you ever travel to Ramallah, Jenin or ...?
Quote:
This fact alone refutes the idea that the results of the Palestinian elections were due to Fatah's corruption. If the Palestinian people really sought peace, in addition to an end to corruption, surely many more of them (more than 2%!) would have supported the Third Way - a secular, uncorrupt, peaceful alternative.


Did Barak loose the election because of the camp david issues or because the Likud had an excellent and expensive campaign based on emotions which were fed by suicide bombers? Did you hear the israeli message to the palestinians before and after the Gaza pullout, have already forgotten about the Weisskopf memorandum which openly declared the Gaza pullout as the tranqulizer pill in order to secure the continued presence in the westbank, are you aware of the way the palestinians must percieve the so called security fence?

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MT:
Quote:
The Altalena incident is one of the proofs that part of the israeli political system before and shortly after the state was founded in 1948 refused to refrain from using weapons


Again, no Jewish organization participated in an election as an armed militia. As opposed to Arafat and Abbas, Ben Gurion fought for the idea of "one rule, one gun" (which is the ONLY way to prevent anarchy) and collected illegal weapons from the Jewish organizations.

Quote:
is the palestinian cause so different to 1948? Is the state of Israel and the settlers not a threat to the palestinian claim as were the British and the armed arab forces a threat for the jews in 48?


Completely different.

No Jewish organization EVER sought the destruction of the UK or of any Arab territory, as opposed to Hamas, which has a clear agenda to destroy the only Jewish state in the world - for religious reasons.

If you can't see the difference, then it's a matter of moral clarity.


Quote:
wrong, Abbas was not very successful but contrary to Arafat he tried at least made some progress, arrested numbers of gunmen, cooperated with israeli secret service and ....


Abbas gave several public speeches in which he declared, very clearly, that he has NO intention of collecting illegal weapons.


Quote:
wait if a Hamas government official will declare such horrible things once they carry the responsibility; compare Begin's, Shamir's or Sharon's statement before and after they assumed government responsibilities


Hamas leaders have already declared this, AFTER the elections. With your vast knowledge we'd assume that you would know much more about current events, and about Hamas and its ideology.

Begin, Shamir and Sharon NEVER sent suicide bombers to kill innocent civilians in buses, discos or restaurants. Begin, Shamir and Sharon NEVER declared that they want the destruction of the UK or of any Arab state.

It's very politically correct to try to compare both sides, but this is NOT the case.


Quote:
you seem to listen only to right wing israel propaganda, the main issue of the palestinians is INDEPENDENCE in other words getting rid of the israeli occupiers


So why did they refuse every offer to end the occupation and achieve a state, from the UN partition plan in 1947 to the 2000 Clinton offer? What the Palestinians seek, it sadly seems, is not the positive achievement of a state of their own, but rather, the negation of the state of Israel.

"Right wing israel propaganda"? This is what Tom Segev (not a right-wing type, to say the least) wrote in Haaretz today about Hamas: "On the basis of the Koran, they deny Israel's right to exist and want to destroy it by terror, relying on "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," among other things. Even an Israeli who favors compromise cannot deny it: It is hard to live with people who believe that God commands them to destroy you; anyone who relies on "The Protocols" is an anti-Semitic scoundrel, or at best, an idiot."

This is absurd - while many Palestinians have accused their leaders of failing them, you find excuses for them. How are you helping the Palestinian cause this way? It's only helping them to stay blind to the reality in which they live.


Quote:
go and read palestinian oppinion polls: you will learn that only a small minority supports the idea of a palestinian state from jordan to the meditaranean


We just had the REAL poll in case you missed it. The Palestinian vote speaks volumes.

Can you imagine that a party which supports "transfer" winning the election in Israel? The two members of Moledet in the government represent a tiny minority, not an overwhelming majority, like the Hamas vote. Moreover, as disdainful as the transfer concept is, it is a world apart from condoning suicide bombings as a way to achieve one's political goals.


Quote:
I wouldn't ever dare to formulate such a comparison, don't you realize the huge difference in democratic experience and level of education


This statement is insulting to every decent Palestinian who, despite a lack of democratic experience and inadequate education, has a clear moral compass and knows that mass murder is a) wrong and b) ineffective in achieving their goals. It is also an insult to every person in the world who has suffered, lacks democratic experience, but still has the basic concept of right and wrong under his or her belt (Why are there no starving African suicide bombers? Or in the shantytowns of South America? Or poverty-stricken Asia?) Are Palestinians not worthy human beings, deserving of a moral compass that we use for everyone? Why is it unthinkable for Jews to mass murder and acceptable and forgivable for Palestinians to do so? How much of a double standard do you want to justify?

Quote:
perhaps you can tell us why a Palestinian party such as the Third Way received only 2% of the votes.
Quote:

you give the answer yourself; because they did not take part in the big corruption businesses which helped to finance the election campaign for Hamas and Fatah; when have talked last time with Palestinian media or business people, did you ever travel to Ramallah, Jenin or ...?


What are you trying to say here -- that only if you are corrupt do you have a chance of winning the election in the PA? How racist is that? The Palestinians say they were punishing Fatah for corruption -- so why didn't they do so with the Third Way -- a party that wasn't corrupt and didn't support suicide bombings and destroying Israel?


Quote:
Did Barak loose the election because of the camp david issues or because the Likud had an excellent and expensive campaign based on emotions which were fed by suicide bombers? Did you hear the israeli message to the palestinians before and after the Gaza pullout, have already forgotten about the Weisskopf memorandum which openly declared the Gaza pullout as the tranqulizer pill in order to secure the continued presence in the westbank, are you aware of the way the palestinians must percieve the so called security fence?


The Israeli message to the Palestinians before and after the Gaza pullout was this: we are serious, we mean business, we are willing to remove settlements for a peaceful future. Please get your act together -- the ball is in your court -- and we can do business. If not, we will continue to act in Israel's own best interests since we cannot be captive to an ineffective partner in the peace process. Its hard to think of a stronger message than the dismantling of all settlements in the West Bank in a democratic process. Over 8000 men women and children taken forcibly from their homes, in order to give a chance for peace. And the security fence is first and foremost a way to save Israeli lives, in the absence of any real Palestinian efforts to stop terror. There is nothing "so called" about it. It saves lives every day - there has been a 90 percent drop in the number of suicide attacks since it has gone up. And as for those who are concerned that it is a political border -- we cannot help but ask -- what do you expect to happen in a future two state solution? Of course there will be borders between the Israeli and Palestinian states. Security borders and fences. That's the way it works between neighbors -- especially those who have a history of not getting along. And if the Palestinians had fought terror in any serious way, there wouldn't have been a need for a security fence in the first place.

Editor's note: We cannot continue answering everyone who writes us in a personal manner. We will publish the content of this correspondence (without your personal details, of course), on the MidEastTruth forum, and the debate can continue from there.


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R:
I am sorry to conclude from your positions that you seem to be obliged to repeat what the israeli propaganda machinery wants you to believe. I therefore do not want to answer your last message in detail. Only one question I want to answer "Why is it unthinkable for Jews to mass murder", is Kirjat Arba's Rav Goldstein not a jew, or was his crime anything else than mass murder?

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R:
[Again] Remember the tones and fears voiced in the arab world when Likud (BEGIN, SHAMIR and SHARON) came to power: very similar to what the conservative jewish and to a lesser extent israeli speakers voice these days about the Hamas election victory. It's not obvous but thinkable that Hamas shall turn into a more powerful and hence acceptable partner.
Pls do not call or write to me again before we both know if a Hamas led government launches war or reconciliation

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    david barrett

  

MidEastTruth.com - the first 13 yearsMidEastTruth.com
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What is Palestine? Who are the Palestinians?
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Who are the Palestinians?


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PostWed Feb 01, 2006 3:31 pm        


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Only one question I want to answer "Why is it unthinkable for Jews to mass murder", is Kirjat Arba's Rav Goldstein not a jew, or was his crime anything else than mass murder?


Of course it is not unthinkable. Believe me there are always times when I wish something more positive could be done.
As someone said to me recently " Its great that Hamas won.When they are all sitting in their parliament we can get them all with one big bomb!"
But thinking and doing are two different things .... as you are well aware.

Now I consider that your next phrase is very insulting!
Goldstein was never a Rav - you have a fine snide way to show your antipathy to religion as well as your LEFT WING leanings.
He was a medical Doctor who had seen too much horror committed by the arabs.
His actions were those of an INDIVIDUAL ACTING WITHOUT A SPONSOR and were roundly condemned by a resounding majorityof Israelis .

Now, on the other hand, our arab brethren organise themselves with their imams & mothers approval to self destruct and cause maximum damage. I have yet to see or hear condemnation from an arab majority that this behaviour is abhorrent. [ and you will never hear this because it is beneath their honour to apologise for something they think may have been done in the name of their Koranic religion]

Indeed one has only to see how they kill each other in Iraq to understand how stupid they are.

The fact of the matter is that you are looking at the issue from galut with a galut mentality.
Sorry; all I feel is that all the good work you do abroad is a salve to your conscience because you will not or cannot live here.
Your attitudes may then reflect a different viewpoint.


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